What makes a ‘big’ club?
To avoid discussion on other threads, this is what I think:
???? Criteria for a “Big Club”
1. Historical Domestic Success
2. European Achievement
3. Fanbase Size & Cultural Impact
4. Stature Over Time (not just recent form)
5. Global Recognition and Reach
⸻
???? Joint-Top Tier: Celtic, Liverpool, Manchester United
???? Liverpool
• Domestic League Titles: 19
• European Cups: 6 (most by a British club)
• Massive global fanbase
• Legendary status with players like Dalglish, Gerrard, and clubs’ ‘You’ll Never Walk Alone’ anthem
• Dominant in Europe in both the 1970s–80s and 2019–20s.
???? Manchester United
• Domestic League Titles: 20 (most in England)
• European Cups: 3
• Sir Alex Ferguson era transformed global perception
• Among the richest and most followed clubs globally
???? Celtic
• Domestic League Titles: 54 (second-most in British football after Rangers)
• European Cups: 1 (1967 – First British club to win it)
• Historic quadruple in 1967: won every competition entered
• Iconic global club, particularly among Irish diaspora and politically engaged football fans
• 60,000 average attendance and one of the highest season ticket bases in Europe
• Global brand identity: associated with anti-establishment, working-class pride
• Dominant in Scotland for decades with incredible domestic records
⏳ Why Celtic is joint-top: Unlike clubs like Chelsea or City, Celtic’s stature is not recent. They were always a big club, and their cultural identity transcends football. Being the first British club to win the European Cup (unlike Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs, or even City until recently) and maintaining a huge following makes them historically and culturally a peer of Liverpool and United.
⸻
???? Next Tier: Arsenal
???? Arsenal
• Domestic League Titles: 13
• European Trophies: 1 (Cup Winners’ Cup, 1994)
• Consistent success, including The Invincibles season (2003–04)
• Massive London club with global following
• Longstanding top-tier presence
• However, no Champions League title, and fewer league titles than Celtic or Liverpool
⸻
???? Third Tier: Manchester City, Chelsea (slightly ahead), Newcastle, Tottenham, Everton
???? Manchester City
• Domestic League Titles: 10 (6 since 2012)
• European Cups: 1 (2023)
• Dominance under Pep Guardiola
• Yet, prior to 2008, were not a traditionally “big club”
• Global recognition is recent and investment-driven
???? Chelsea
• Domestic League Titles: 6 (5 since 2005)
• European Cups: 2 (2012, 2021)
• Like City, success is recent; not traditionally dominant before the Abramovich era
???? Why not top-tier: Their rise is recent and largely dependent on financial investment, not long-term legacy or grassroots support. While they’ve achieved more in Europe recently than Arsenal, their overall identity as a “big club” is newer.
⸻
⚪ The Chasing Pack: Newcastle, Tottenham, Everton etc
⚫⚪ Newcastle United
• Huge loyal fanbase and iconic stadium
• 4 league titles (all pre-1950s)
• No European or Premier League success
• Historically relevant but not elite in trophy count
⚪ Tottenham Hotspur
• 2 league titles, 2 UEFA Cups
• Strong London presence and solid European runs
• Reputation stronger than actual trophy haul
???? Everton
• 9 league titles, 5 FA Cups
• Historically very successful but not recently
• Strong Merseyside identity and big following
⸻
???? Logical Summary (Pyramid Style)
Tier 1 (Joint-Top):
• Celtic, Liverpool, Manchester United
→ Elite historical dominance, fanbase, European achievement, cultural importance.
Tier 2:
• Arsenal
→ Consistent presence, strong domestic record, global brand.
Tier 3 (Modern Climbers):
• Chelsea, Manchester City
→ Incredible recent success, but legacy and culture not yet equal to Tier 1.
Tier 4 (Sleeping Giants):
• Newcastle, Tottenham, Everton
→ Passionate fanbases, some historic moments, but lower achievement overall.
???? Criteria for a “Big Club”
1. Historical Domestic Success
2. European Achievement
3. Fanbase Size & Cultural Impact
4. Stature Over Time (not just recent form)
5. Global Recognition and Reach
⸻
???? Joint-Top Tier: Celtic, Liverpool, Manchester United
???? Liverpool
• Domestic League Titles: 19
• European Cups: 6 (most by a British club)
• Massive global fanbase
• Legendary status with players like Dalglish, Gerrard, and clubs’ ‘You’ll Never Walk Alone’ anthem
• Dominant in Europe in both the 1970s–80s and 2019–20s.
???? Manchester United
• Domestic League Titles: 20 (most in England)
• European Cups: 3
• Sir Alex Ferguson era transformed global perception
• Among the richest and most followed clubs globally
???? Celtic
• Domestic League Titles: 54 (second-most in British football after Rangers)
• European Cups: 1 (1967 – First British club to win it)
• Historic quadruple in 1967: won every competition entered
• Iconic global club, particularly among Irish diaspora and politically engaged football fans
• 60,000 average attendance and one of the highest season ticket bases in Europe
• Global brand identity: associated with anti-establishment, working-class pride
• Dominant in Scotland for decades with incredible domestic records
⏳ Why Celtic is joint-top: Unlike clubs like Chelsea or City, Celtic’s stature is not recent. They were always a big club, and their cultural identity transcends football. Being the first British club to win the European Cup (unlike Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs, or even City until recently) and maintaining a huge following makes them historically and culturally a peer of Liverpool and United.
⸻
???? Next Tier: Arsenal
???? Arsenal
• Domestic League Titles: 13
• European Trophies: 1 (Cup Winners’ Cup, 1994)
• Consistent success, including The Invincibles season (2003–04)
• Massive London club with global following
• Longstanding top-tier presence
• However, no Champions League title, and fewer league titles than Celtic or Liverpool
⸻
???? Third Tier: Manchester City, Chelsea (slightly ahead), Newcastle, Tottenham, Everton
???? Manchester City
• Domestic League Titles: 10 (6 since 2012)
• European Cups: 1 (2023)
• Dominance under Pep Guardiola
• Yet, prior to 2008, were not a traditionally “big club”
• Global recognition is recent and investment-driven
???? Chelsea
• Domestic League Titles: 6 (5 since 2005)
• European Cups: 2 (2012, 2021)
• Like City, success is recent; not traditionally dominant before the Abramovich era
???? Why not top-tier: Their rise is recent and largely dependent on financial investment, not long-term legacy or grassroots support. While they’ve achieved more in Europe recently than Arsenal, their overall identity as a “big club” is newer.
⸻
⚪ The Chasing Pack: Newcastle, Tottenham, Everton etc
⚫⚪ Newcastle United
• Huge loyal fanbase and iconic stadium
• 4 league titles (all pre-1950s)
• No European or Premier League success
• Historically relevant but not elite in trophy count
⚪ Tottenham Hotspur
• 2 league titles, 2 UEFA Cups
• Strong London presence and solid European runs
• Reputation stronger than actual trophy haul
???? Everton
• 9 league titles, 5 FA Cups
• Historically very successful but not recently
• Strong Merseyside identity and big following
⸻
???? Logical Summary (Pyramid Style)
Tier 1 (Joint-Top):
• Celtic, Liverpool, Manchester United
→ Elite historical dominance, fanbase, European achievement, cultural importance.
Tier 2:
• Arsenal
→ Consistent presence, strong domestic record, global brand.
Tier 3 (Modern Climbers):
• Chelsea, Manchester City
→ Incredible recent success, but legacy and culture not yet equal to Tier 1.
Tier 4 (Sleeping Giants):
• Newcastle, Tottenham, Everton
→ Passionate fanbases, some historic moments, but lower achievement overall.