She Was the First Woman to Climb 5.15. What is Margo Hayes Doing Now?

For several months in early 2017, an image of a messy-haired 19-year-old, face covered in chalk, clutching herself and crying happy tears, was omnipresent in the climbing media. I think it’s one of the best off-wall climbing shots ever taken. Few portraits, before or since, have captured the elusive, raw sensation—equal parts glee and shellshock—that bubbles to the surface after clipping the chains with nothing left in the tank. It was one of those rare photos that is so candid, so revealing, it’s almost uncomfortable to look at, a glimpse into someone else’s knife-edge.

The portrait was of American climber Margo Hayes after sending La Rambla (5.15a), in Siurana, Catalonia. It was the first time a woman had climbed 5.15. Hayes—a competition star who had won gold in both Lead and Bouldering in the previous year’s IFSC Youth World Championships—went on to send two more 5.15a’s: Biographie later that year and Papichulo in 2019. During that period, Hayes was widely considered the strongest female climber in the world.

Now 26, Hayes has largely been out of the headlines since the pandemic. She narrowly missed out on a 2020 Tokyo Olympics slot, and then… nothing. She went sotto voce. In the past five years, she’s occasionally posted pictures of her on the end of a rope, and recently went public about a debilitating struggle with chronic Lyme disease and coinfections, but her social profiles and online presence has remained largely nonspecific—selfies, artsy photos, cryptic captions, and the occasional modeling campaign.

Then, in early 2024, seemingly out of nowhere she released a debut single, “Karma,” on Spotify, under the name Margo Jain. Other songs followed, and last month, she dropped a full-fledged album, Notes to You. Perhaps unsurprisingly, the #1 suggested question on Google when searching her name is: “What is Margo Hayes doing now?” I called her up to find out.

The following interview has been lightly edited for clarity.

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So, Margo, what’s life like for you right now? Where are you based, what are you up to, day-to-day?

I’m in Southern California, near Los Angeles. And, honestly, the majority of my time is still spent training for climbing. But I’ve been through a lot in the last few years. The plot twists have been crazy. Lots of ups and downs, but I’m grateful for it all in retrospect. I actually have a fractured sacrum right now, from running and training too much. I didn’t even know it was broken for two weeks. I was running with it, which I don’t know if that’s admirable or just stupid. Maybe both. At times I think growing up as a gymnast made me too tough of a cookie.

Climbing is still my main focus. I have a lot of goals that for the last couple of years I had to put on the back burner. I dealt with Lyme disease, and had a few injuries, and been through some pretty traumatic events. But I am definitely on the up now, which is beautiful. Now, when I face a challenge, rather than saying, “Why is this happening to me? I feel like I’m asking, “What can I learn from this? What’s the lesson?”

There have been silver linings. This “off” period of time has given me more time to tap into other passions and interests that I’ve always had. It’s been a blessing in disguise.

That’s a great perspective. I heard a sound bite from you on Climbing Gold recently, where you said if you’re “all in” on one thing, you miss out on other pieces of life. As someone who interviews a lot of climbers, I’m often struck by how some are really strong on the wall, but they don’t have much else going on in life. Climbing in the upper echelons can be all-consuming. But you’ve managed to put effort into a music career, modeling… these other pursuits. That’s cool.

Thank you. I appreciate that. Talking about Climbing Gold, I spoke on there about wanting a “bigger box.” I think the climbing community really likes to put you in a box of “their” perception of you. If you veer outside that box, they’re like, “Wait, no.” You know what I mean?

Dolly Parton was once asked, “Do you care what people think of you?” and she was like, “The people who know me in my life, who are close to me and know my character, I care about what they think. The people that don’t know me, absolutely not.” I relate to that sentiment. That’s how I feel. There’s always a lot of judgment on the Internet, the climbing community can be quite harsh. I really appreciate those climbers that are more open-minded to people that aren’t satisfied only climbing.

Since I was little, I had a lot of years where I didn’t really have much time for anything other than climbing. So as I’ve matured, I’ve realized I want to broaden my life. Creating art can be scary, because it’s vulnerable, and there are so many people that don’t pursue interests and passions because they’re afraid of what people will think. They’re afraid of judgment, afraid of failure. And I think I’ve been able to avoid that mindset, because I’ve always been a little bit delusional, maybe [laughs]. I don’t like to box myself in or put limitations on myself. I don’t want to look back and think, “Oh, I should have tried that.”

I think people have this misconception that if you’re doing multiple things, then you’re not taking another thing seriously. Like, I am still a climber, an athlete. I still go to the gym, climb for two hours a day, go for an hour run, do Pilates every morning… But people see I’m releasing music or doing photography, and they’re like, “Oh, so you quit climbing? Are you never going to climb again?”

Those people are not in the wrong for making assumptions based solely on what I post or whether my ascents are in headlines, but it reflects that we only see the tip of the iceberg with people. We only see the accomplishments.

Tell us about your music career. Your first single dropped earlier this year, but you just released a full EP, right?

My first single was in the spring, but I started writing this music in the fall of 2022. Actually, writing has always been a part of my life, it’s not a new thing for me. I’ve written poetry since I was really young. This EP consists of singles that are all old stuff. I actually didn’t know if I would put it anywhere or if I would just keep it private, but I decided just to release it, and it’s my start. It serves as closing a chapter and also opening another. It’s like a time capsule for me. Much like a meaningful route.

When I listen to it now, there are so many things I would change, but I’m proud of what I created from nothing, you know? I went from having no idea how to get into music, and I took a risk.

How did you go from writing songs in private to recording and releasing them?

I worked with this producer in Miami who I got in touch with. I felt I could learn from him. It felt like a safe space. It was early [2024], around my birthday, in February, and I decided to fly myself to Miami alone as a birthday treat. I’ve traveled alone to climb since I was young, obviously, so I’m okay with that, but because I was going there to record music it felt different.

We landed and had to wait on the tarmac for four hours, and I was sitting in the plane like, “Oh, my God. I don’t know what I’m doing.” But it worked out. I got a little spot in Miami for a few days, and we were in the studio for like 25 hours total. We just recorded the whole thing in one push. I was so nervous because I’d never been in a studio before, but it was a great first experience.

It sounds high-pressure. Can you draw any comparisons between being in-studio to competing as a climber, showing up at a comp, being in iso, and then going out and performing?

I definitely can’t compare comps and going in studio, because going in studio is actually super chill. I was only nervous because I’d never met this guy, I’d never done anything like this before [laughs] it’s not really recommended to fly across the country by yourself, show up at a studio with someone you’ve never met before and record songs. But I had a good feel for him, the studio was really cool, and he was a great dude.

But I would say there is a comparison between music and climbing in a sense. I went on [Instagram Live] yesterday, which I never do, and someone’s question was, “What do you like the most about making music? And I said, “That it feels like magic.” You start with absolutely nothing. It starts as a melody, or something you’ve written or a poem, and then that turns into an entire song. It comes from nothing.

In climbing, I feel the same way. If I get on a project and I try a route and I can’t do all the moves, it’s nothing, like those bits of words or poems. But then if somehow I piece it together, it becomes this dance, this piece of art.

Did you write all of your songs yourself?

I wrote probably 95% of the lyrics. The guy I produced with, he came in and he helped me make a few melody shifts, a few lyric shifts, which was really beautiful for my first project, since I was learning so much. It was nice to collaborate. I think it’s important when you’re starting out to be open-minded. I’m stubborn, but I was grateful for the things I could learn from him.

For sure, that’s the way you got to be starting out in anything. How would you characterize your music? What artists are you inspired by and what genre do you feel your songs fall under?

It feels hard to pin it into a genre, but I would say it’s pop R&B, maybe a little bit alternative. But also, I don’t really know. I think when you’re starting out, it takes some time to find your sound. That was part of what this first project was, finding my sound and exploring, just having fun. There was no pressure. As far as artists I’m inspired by, Frank Ocean will remain my favorite probably forever. I’ve loved his music for many many years and it holds a lot of meaning for me.

I’ve heard you talk before about wanting to “create” your whole life, but also about constantly educating yourself. Do you mean academically? Are there particular fields you’re interested in?

I’m considering finishing my degree in biology. My life has been a little bit derailed with other things, but I probably have a year left of university unless I want to specialize, which I might do cellular microbiology, or marine biology. But yeah, I’m always educating myself. I listen to Andrew Huberman’s podcast all the time, for example, simply because I love learning new things. I love understanding. I’m very curious and always have been. I like things where I feel educated on a scientific level. I love podcasts. I also like learning languages. Sometimes I sit down with a book of French or Spanish verbs and study verbs to increase my vocabulary and my comprehension so when I travel, I can maneuver more swiftly in a foreign country. I also love reading fiction. I spend a lot of my time in books, and I’ve had more time for that over the last few years.

What sort of books are you into? Any authors, in particular?

The last book I finished is called Marigold Mind Laundry by a Korean author, Jungeun Yun. It’s so beautiful. It’s about a woman who owns a laundromat, and she washes out the stains on people’s hearts and minds. It’s a cool story, but it also has a very contemporary take. There are so many different stories woven into each chapter that it’s relatable to almost anyone. I read a diverse range of books, which I think helps with writing. I’m also big on journaling, because I’m actually a pretty private person. Even interviewing like this, I’m a little quiet. I find it hard to open up and give more than the tip of the iceberg. But I love to journal, it helps me get those thoughts and feelings out.

How did you overcome the hurdle to release all these songs? If that’s your personality, to be private, introverted, I imagine it must have felt pretty vulnerable.

You just have to disassociate! [laughs] No, to be honest it was fun. Dropping my first single was scary, but the more recent stuff hasn’t been hard. I got over it. I would say I’m an extroverted introvert. I keep my circle small. (It’s basically a dot at this point.) The other thing is that music is something I do on the side right now. Training and climbing is still what occupies most of my time, but it’s nice when I have time to be creative in music or other art forms.

But also, art in any form, when you’re making it, it’s for you. But once I release it, it’s for everyone else. It’s not even really my business what someone thinks about it. It’s for whoever can take that song or that piece of art, relate to it, and have it do something in their life.

That’s insightful, learning to “detach” from it on some level. As someone who publishes writing in the digital age I can relate. Sometimes people will read a headline and shit on you in the comments without actually reading the piece.

[Laughs] Yeah, I’ve gotten some serious hate, but I don’t care. If people aren’t hating on you, you aren’t taking risks or being fully you. Not everyone is going to like you. That’s life.

Yeah, I was going to ask, what has the reception been to your music? Have people liked it? Or, I guess you’re just saying it doesn’t matter to you?

No, overall, it’s been good. But also people in the climbing world, my main audience, don’t know me for my creative side, really … I’ve always been independent and maybe stubborn, and I like to do things on my own terms and timeline. And I think, as a professional athlete, that sometimes is an issue with certain people or fans, or even certain sponsors. But also when it comes down to it, it’s your life. You need to do what’s best for you.

Especially with social media, if you have a fan base of some sort, it’s easy to get caught up in other people’s expectations and live your life for other people. But you really should live your life for yourself. I don’t mean that in a narcissistic manner, you need to be giving back, you need to be kind, take care of other people, and do your part in this world. But when it comes to other people’s perception, you need to live your life based on you. You should go to bed at night and be proud of what you did that day. That’s all that matters.

You release music as “Margo Jain.” That’s also your name on social media. Is Jain your middle name? Where does it come from? Jainism the religion?

Yeah, I made that my Instagram back in high school or whatever. But yeah, long story short, I’m named after Jainism. My parents traveled a bunch before they had my sister and me, particularly in Nepal and India. My parents were taken aback by the beauty, both physically at Jain temples and also the values of the religion. It centers around practicing empathy, doing no harm. I often get messages from people like, “Oh, you’re a Jain?” and I’m not. I’m not religious, I would say I’m spiritual, but I don’t identify with any organized religious practice.

You describe yourself on Instagram as a climber and artist, but also as a model. I imagine many would see “model” as an identifier, and jump to conclusions about vanity or narcissism. But I assume there is art to it, too. Can you give us insight into what draws you to modeling, or why you would identify yourself as one?

For a long time, I only really dipped my toe into it. It came into my life really through my relationship with Dior, which has been magical. Yes, I assume some people, especially in climbing, look at the modeling industry as shallow, but to me fashion and imagery are art forms. I’ve been styling outfits and taking pictures for creative purposes since I was a little girl. I do believe there is an artistic process to [modeling], and there are campaigns I’ve been a part of that I’ve absolutely adored.

I would say that I’m in love with beauty, but not necessarily in the traditional sense, or on a surface level. I’m in love with art and composition, anything that tells a story, and modeling can do that. I think modeling can have a negative connotation, for sure, but if you think of it, the word “model”—and this is part of why I have it in my bio—it’s also the root of “role model.” We’re all models for someone, and we all have role models in our life. As a model, you can model something deeper, more complex and meaningful than just an aesthetic type of beauty. It’s an opportunity to tell a story. I’m both fierce and feminine and I will always embody both. Those two things aren’t mutually exclusive. I want young girls to see that you can be confident in your unique beauty (mind, body, and spirit) and simultaneously defy limitations in any field, whether that be sports, art, or medicine.

That’s not to say I see myself as a perfect role model, either. But I do have a platform, and if I could be a role model in any sense, it would be for young girls and women to know it’s okay to be more than one thing. No matter what people say, whatever judgment you get, you should never feel you have to succumb to people telling you to be smaller. Societally, women are sometimes pressured to be quiet, to take up less space, and I’m like, “Be loud and be proud. Do what you want in your life.”

I want little girls who want to excel in climbing to know that doesn’t mean you have to give up your passion for art or science, STEM, coding, whatever. We’re always asked when we’re young, “What do you want to be when you grow up?” And there’s this expectation that there’s one answer. You can only choose one thing. I don’t like that.

When you sent La Rambla, it was a big deal. It seemed very inspiring for a lot of women. But it sounds like you’re also saying it pigeonholed you, in a sense? It put you in this box of just being a “strong climber?”

I wouldn’t say it pigeonholed me, but it did narrow people’s perception of me. They were like, “Okay, she’s just a 5.15 climber.” Which I am, but that doesn’t mean I’m not other things. Success is great, but it also has this strange effect: now, for some reason, when I pursue other passions as well, there’s a certain demographic that’s “disappointed” by that.

It’s funny, because nothing has changed for me. I’ve always been artistic and been creating, and I also still want to climb hard. I still have big goals in the sport. Yeah, I haven’t been top of the headlines for a moment. I’ve been more under the radar, but that’s okay with me.

On that note, do you have a big climbing project you’re working on?

I never share. That’s also why I think my music was a surprise, because I don’t ever share projects or goals, really, until they’re done. That’s because I feel like external energy can be negative. People are always going to talk, and I want it to be an intimate experience between me and a climb or me and a creative project. So I won’t share. I keep things close to my chest, but I do have some big goals in climbing.

What’s next for you in the music world? Sounds like you plan to release more music, too?

Yes! But again… I’m keeping everything close to my chest right now.

Sweet. Last question: Is there anything else in life right now that you’re stoked on? You mentioned biology earlier, I guess I’m curious what drew you to biology as a field of study and what you want to do with it…

Actually, part of the reason why I’m thinking about going back to school for it, and particularly for marine biology, is that I’ve been spending a lot of time in the open ocean, which is such an amazing experience, very different from the shallows on the beach.. To just jump off of a boat and be in the middle of this vast expanse of open water. It’s a feeling of complete relinquishment of control, but it’s beautiful.

But yeah, to answer your question, I’ve been into science and math my whole life. I thought I wanted to go to medical school and be a doctor. That was the path I thought I would take. I’m on a different path now, but I still am drawn to science, and I also have always had a strong connection to nature: the ocean, the trees, the Earth. I feel very connected to our planet. It makes me want to learn more about the world we live in.

There are so many unknowns and so many tiny intricacies about the world we live in—even within our own bodies, our organs, our cells—that we overlook because we’re used to it all. But if you stop and actually learn about the nuances in humanity, in other animals, it’s just wild. So yeah, this is a field I’m interested in, but more broadly, I think I just love to learn. It’s so cool to start something new. It’s amazing. You can start new, start fresh, with so many different things in your life. Life is long.

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