2019 Rules Discussions •

Hi Doug

This has certainly been an interesting question, and as you will see from the transcript below of my dialog with both the R&A and USGA. Both bodies initially responded to my question on this with a decision stating a re-drop was required, so imagine my surprise when the USGA announced a different answer on their quiz. It also appears from Conor's response to my email updating the R&A on the decision of the USGA based on the quiz that he wasn't initially in agreement.

I wrote to both parties following a poll I conducted amongst 20 members of my Facebook group "The Golf Rules Samaritan", those polled hold R&A Level III certification or USGA Advanced level certification and the results were split 50/50. I felt that was unacceptable considering the Clarification was meant to clarify the position of the MLR.

Anyway, we now have a ruling that both bodies are agreeing to and no doubt, as many have mentioned in the group, the BoTL rule will be ratified in the 1st edition of the rules re-write., or maybe, if we're lucky there will be a clarification to the clarification!

I've now quizzed Conor and the team on the meaning of "wrong way" in the clarification to 14.5/C1 as that was also a contentious answer to Q16 on round 4 of the short quiz, which again, a small number answered correctly at 32%.

Thx for taking an interest in this Doug, if you have any other thoughts feel free to email me on fraser286@gmail.com

Here's the full transcript, apologies it's a tome and best read from bottom up......

Hi Fraser,
 
My apologies for the delay coming back to you on this query.
 
After discussion with the USGA staff (and reviewing their webinar) and further discussion within our team, I agree with the USGA’s position on the ruling and their reasoning behind the answer.  As stated, MLR E-12 specifically states that there is no penalty if a ball is played from a wrong place, provided the ball comes to rest within one-club length of where it first struck the ground.  Under MLR E-12 the player has the option to play the ball as it lies or drop the ball again.
 
I hope this helps clarify the position and removes any confusion from my initial response.
 
Kind regards,
Conor
From: Fraser Nicol <fraser286@gmail.com>
Sent: 11 September 2020 13:31
To: Rules Mail <RulesMail@randa.org>
Subject: Fwd: R6/14.3 and 19.2
 
Hi Conor
 
I just wanted to check-in to see if you have everything you need on this and if you are able to provide a full response?


Regards
 
Fraser
 
---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Fraser Nicol <fraser286@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2020 at 13:42
Subject: Re: R6/14.3 and 19.2
To: Rules Mail <RulesMail@randa.org>
 
Hi Conor
 
Many thanks for the prompt reply again, I did suspect the Amateur Championships had consumed you! I'll look forward to hearing from you all soon.
 
Re the answer from the USGA, here are a couple of URL links related to their Short Course quiz - Round 4 - Question 13, which is the subject of my enquiry:
 
Main URL... this gives everything including a link to the quiz and towards the bottom of the page a recap of the Vimeo webinar recording which the USGA team delivered to cover some of the more challenging questions which featured.... fast forward to the 46min & 30sec mark and the USGA team will discuss Q13. Kathryn Belanger provides the review and the answer as B, and the "Fraser" who challenges this in the follow up is yours truly.

 
https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home- ... pping.html
 
They also provide the answer in written form at:
 
https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/p ... nswers.pdf
 
I hope that helps and look forward to your response as this one is causing a lot of confusion and grumbles amongst many of the Short Course leaderboard participants.
 
 
Regards
 
Fraser
 
 
On Tue, 8 Sep 2020 at 13:27, Rules Mail <RulesMail@randa.org> wrote:

Hi Fraser,
 
Thank you for sending on the below email thread.  Can I ask where the USGA have advised the answer to be B, 1 penalty stroke, as I cannot see this below.
 
With two of our Amateur Championships taking place in August, as well as the running of the AIG Women’s Open the majority of our team have been out of office attending these events and are currently working our way through Rules queries that have been received.
 
I will pass on your feedback to our digital team as this would fall under their remit.  I appreciate it would be helpful to include the original query that was submitted when receiving the automatic response.
 
Kind regards,
Conor
From: Fraser Nicol <fraser286@gmail.com>
Sent: 08 September 2020 11:38
To: Rules Mail <RulesMail@randa.org>
Subject: Re: R6/14.3 and 19.2
 
Hi Conor
 
Here is the response I received from David Staebler at the USGA: my question and reference to the language and interpretation of the MLR are below his response. I'd also like to point out that only 27% of the people who took the quiz answered this question correctly, Most opted for D! This certainly highlights that the vast majority of rule officials / players are interpreting the last paragraph the same way that both you and David Staebler confirmed to me in your initial responses.
 
Also, as an aside, I am still awaiting responses to a few questions I have sent the R&A in August; 2 on the 5th and 1 on the 7th, 10th & 25th. Is there any chance you could chase these? 
 
Finally, just a small observation, when the R&A automatically replies to a rules question that has been submitted via the website online form it would be really helpful if it could contain the question sent.
 
Many thanks again.
 
Fraser
 

Dear Fraser, The language in the last paragraph of the MLS does not change the requirement in Rules 17, 19 or 16.1c that a ball dropped using the back-on-the-line procedure must come to rest in the same area of the course that the ball first touched when dropped in order for the ball to be considered to be in a correct place.  Such a ball must be re-dropped, even when MLR E1-12 is in use. Thank you for your interest in the Rules of Golf, which can be found on the USGA’s web site at www.rulesofgolf.com or with the Rules of Golf Mobile App for iOS and Android. Additionally, we invite you to learn more about the 2019 Rules of Golf, at http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-p ... s-hub.html. This response is for your personal information and may not be posted or disclosed by email or internet posting. Best, David Staebler Director, Rules Education United States Golf Association 77 Liberty Corner Road Liberty Corner, NJ 07938 908.326.1896 www.usga.org dstaebler@usga.org This email may contain confidential or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete it without disclosing it to anyone and notify us immediately.

 

Fraser Nicol Aug 1, 2020, 12:35 PM EDT Hi   The clarification on this is unclear MLR. The last sentence of E-12 has:   This Local Rule does not change the procedure for taking Back-On-the-Line relief under a relevant Rule. This means that the reference point and relief area are not changed by this Local Rule and that Rule 14.3c(2) can be applied by a player who drops a ball in the right way and it comes to rest outside the relief area, whether this occurs on the first or second drop.   Does this infer that playing from another area of the course (such as the Penalty Area), when dropping in the General Area is not permitted as the ball is no longer in the same relief area you are dropping in, as per the conditions set out in 19.2b: If more than one area of the course is located within one club-length of the reference point, the ball must come to rest in the relief area in the same area of the course that the ball first touched when dropped in the relief area.     IMHO that is how I interpret this MLR but I have to be brutally honest and say it could have been written in a much clearer way as the rest of the language suggests playing from a wrong place is not penalised as long as the ball is within 1 club-length of where it 1st touched the ground.   I've conducted a private poll amongst my Facebook group members, many of whom are on the leaderboard and it's 50/50! This does not sit well with me as many highly regarded and experienced rule officials are reading this in two different ways, which means the ruling bodies are failing in their duties. Sorry, but I don't mean any offence by that, it's purely an informed observation.

Regards
 
Fraser
 
 
On Tue, 8 Sep 2020 at 11:07, Rules Mail <RulesMail@randa.org> wrote:

Hi Fraser,
 
This is one I will need to discuss further with our team and also the staff at the USGA, before coming back to you with an answer to your query.  Can you, if possible, forward on the email response received by the USGA with their decision.
 
Kind regards,
Conor
 From: Fraser Nicol <fraser286@gmail.com>
Sent: 05 September 2020 00:56
To: Rules Mail <RulesMail@randa.org>
Subject: Re: R6/14.3 and 19.2
 

Dear Connor
 
I trust you are all well and healthy?
 
Re our correspondence below, I wanted to update you and ask for some further advice.
 
There was a motive to my original question. I had polled 20 top rules officials from all over the world on a similar question the USGA had posed in their Short Course Round 4 quiz related to "Dropping the Ball", and they were split 50/50 on how they interpreted that reference to the Relief area limitation passage in the last paragraph of the E-12 MLR.
 
I wrote to the USGA and they replied with a similar response to the one you kindly provided below, in which they confirmed the player was required to re-drop.
 
Fast forward 5 weeks and they confirmed the answer to the question:
 
In stroke play, with Model Local Rule E-12 in effect, your ball is in an animal hole in a bunker and you decide to take back-on-the-line relief outside the bunker. You place a tee in the ground to create a reference point on the reference line and drop a ball in the relief area. The dropped ball first touches part of the ground in the general area in your relief area, but it then bounces and accidentally hits your foot that is outside the relief area. After hitting your foot, the ball rolls and comes to rest on a spot that is within one club-length of where it first touched the ground when dropped, but on the line marking a red penalty area. You play the ball from where it came to rest. How many penalty strokes do you get, if any?
 
a. 0
b. 1
c. 2
d. 3 
 
Based on the answer they provided and how you responded to my initial question, can you please further confirm that the answer to this question is "D" as the USGA are now advising the answer is "B" and the player was permitted to play from where the ball came to rest.
 


Regards
 
Fraser
 
 
On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 at 14:26, Rules Mail <RulesMail@randa.org> wrote:

Dear Fraser,
 
Thank you for your email regarding a query on the Rules of Golf.
 
In answer to your question, when taking back-on-the-line relief for an unplayable ball the player may have more than one area of the course located within one club-length of the reference point, even when MLR E-12 has been adopted by the Committee.  If a player drops the ball and it first touched the course in the general area, the ball must come to rest in the general area to satisfy the limits on location of relief area when taking unplayable relief (Rule 19.2b).  In the situation you have described below, the player has dropped the ball in the general area but it has come to rest in the penalty area.  The ball has been dropped in the right way but has come to rest outside the relief area and the ball or another ball must be dropped again as covered by Rule 14.3c(2).  If the player does not drop the ball again, he or she gets the general penalty for playing the ball from outside the relief area (Rule 14.3b(3)). 
 
The player would also have one penalty stroke for taking unplayable relief, giving three penalty strokes in total.
 
I hope this information is of some assistance.
 
Kind regards,
Conor
 
Name: Fraser Nicol has sent the following message:
Their contact details are:
Email Address:  fraser286@gmail.com
Country:  United Kingdom
GolfClub:  Kings Hill Golf Club
Query:  Hi Re MLR-E12 can you advise if the following scenario would attract a 1 stroke penalty: OK or Not OK? During a tournament where MLR E-12 has been adopted Player A takes back-on-the-line relief for an unplayable ball in the general area. Player A places a tee in the ground on the reference line about 10 yards behind the spot where the original ball was in the unplayable location and carefully measures the relief area all of which is in the general area. Player A drops the ball in the relief area in the right way and the ball rolls out of the relief area toward the hole and comes to rest on a red line defining a penalty area. Pleased with the lie Player A determines with his driver that the ball came to rest less than one club-length from where the ball first touched the ground when dropped. Player A played the ball. Is this a breach of the "relief area" per the last paragraph of the MLR as the player has played from the Penalty Area and not the General Area? This Local Rule does not change the procedure for taking Back-On-the-Line relief under a relevant Rule. This means that the reference point and relief area are not changed by this Local Rule and that Rule 14.3c(2) can be applied by a player who drops a ball in the right way and it comes to rest outside the relief area whether this occurs on the first or second drop.”
Fraser Nicol completed the query form: 
Is your query regarding a competition?   NO  
Form of play:*   Stroke Play
Format (e.g. Individual / Four-ball better ball / Foursomes / Stableford):*  Individual
Has the competition been closed (stroke play) or the result officially announced (match play)?:*  
When did the Rules incident occur?:*  During a competition

statistics: Posted by FrazNic — 24 minutes ago

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